Thursday, September 15, 2011

Gay Rights Part 1

Big topic.

I never had issues with homosexuality. I remember none of my family really spoke about it while I was growing up. I guess I learned about it from shows like Will and Grace, Queer Eye -I miss that show, Ellen The Generous, Kathy Griffin, America's Next Top Model, Project Runway and Lance Bass. Most of those influences were during my later teen years. (I Heart Mondo)

I remember being in high school with my Christian friends and them making comments about Clay Aiken who I had seen in concert. I didn't really think Clay was gay, but then again I didn't really care either way. My friend Katie did though. 

One day she actually pointed out a boy to me and said, "I heard he's gay". In my head I was like, Awesome, I've always wanted a gay best friend! So I said, "Cool." Katie was like, "Ewww, no it's gross. Two boys kissing?" I was like, "Well if they don't mind it and I don't have to watch them kissing then why should I care?" She was like, "No it's just gross". She also mentioned not liking the show Will and Grace for the same reason.

I didn't hear much about gays for a while until the whole Prop 8 situation came around. It pissed me off. Gays seemed like a group everyone had issues with and I didn't know why, except that it was written in the Bible somewhere that homosexuality was a bad thing. But no one I knew ever cited the Bible, they just said gays were "gross" or "wrong".

I actually came up with a long list of practical reasons why gays should be allowed to marry. Things like:  

"A man who murdered 14 people and raped 7 women -one of whom was a 72 year old- got married when a "fan" of his said she wanted conjugal visits with him in prison. They were legally wedded."

And yet I never hear anything about murderers being allowed to marry ruining the "sanctity of marriage". Or how about

"A 21 year old woman marries a rich 60 year old -he for sex and she for money."

"Two people who get drunk in Vegas one night think, What the hell? and get hitched." 

But then religious folk would call these: abuses of the system. They say homosexuality is another type of abuse. And yet if you were to say, "Well then why don't you protest these other forms of marriages or find some way to prevent them like you do gay marriage?" Then their argument runs into a wall: "Well you can't really pick and choose who can and can't get married because you don't know which marriages are genuine or not. God knows which souls truly belong together. So since they're not Gay marriages -which are easier to distinguish since homosexuality is one of those abuses and can be more easily prevented -let's not judge the heterosexual ones."

I couldn't quite find solid logical ground to stand on to show what I instinctually knew was right. It wasn't until early last year I found that clear line of reasoning to support my understanding. Now I honestly don't have to worry about it.

There are 5 kinds of people when it comes to relating to the topic of gay rights.

Group1: These are people who say there's nothing wrong with gays. They are either gay themselves, have friends who are gay, or have no connection to gays but still believe gays should be allowed to live their lives in peace because they don't lack empathy. They will usually list Compassion and Love as the basis for most of their reasoning, as well as some of the ones I listed above.In other words: Hearts in the Right Place, but Minds Can't be Found.

Group2: These are people who are "on the fence" about it. They would prefer to be neutral and not take a side or get involved in the debate because they really don't care either way. It's "not our concern". 

These people -because of their lack of a stance- can also be easily swayed by others to take a side. For instance, if someone didn't really care about whether a tree was taken down or not on their street and someone came along in favor of the tree being taken down, they could say, "But it will interfere with the power lines and if a branch takes one down you could lose your electricity". Whether this statement is or isn't verified by actual facts or would only be a temporary inconvenience for the person doesn't matter. Most of Group2 people will choose to tear down the tree rather than risk anything that may come to cost them in some way. "When you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything".

Group3: These are ignorant bigots. Pay them no heed. These are the folks who if they were raised in the 1960s would says that it is unnatural and wrong for a black man to marry a white woman. They have sort of been "brain washed" in some ways and their views don't count for much because they aren't founded in compassion or logic -just moronic notions arising from opinion rather than an educated position. They are a dying breed of thought. Time will wash their social presence away.

Group4: These are people who take a religious stance on the topic. They are usually Christian, and will quote the Bible or at least refer to it in their arguments. They will say things like, "I don't have a problem with gay people, but the Bible says there is something wrong with homosexuality and gays will go to Hell. (Also Jesus loves everyone and anyone can be saved through Him)". They will say this like a fact. That is "out of our hands". They may not know the reasons why being gay is immoral, but they will state it as a common understanding they have. They don't hate gays, but they do believe they will go to Hell. Some may even be sympathetic about it.

Group5: These are the oppressors. These are cruel people who enjoy the concept that gays will suffer. They hate. Period. There are some among this group who could beat a person for being gay, torture a person for being gay, or end the life of a person for being gay -NOT because the person is actually gay, but because they are violent and oppressive. Most just opt in to make sure gay's basic rights are denied. It's easy for them to do. Why do they hate gays? I think it's mostly a societal thing -Gays are painted to be weak and inferior so "bullies" and "haters" prefer to treat them as such. The people of Group 5 are Genuinely Immoral.

So which groups should you be concerned about? Surprisingly only Groups 2 and 5. Group 2 frustrates me to no end because they don't take a stand until they allow themselves to be blindly swayed by others to whatever opinion is imposed upon them. They are a living sway vote. They are also Indifferent -in this case to the suffering of others. 

Group 5 personally frightens me. But I remember that all bullies and people that are cruel should not be feared, they should be pitied. They are defective in some ways and hate has led them to lose site of their humanity. It's Sad.

As for Group4, I don't hate Christians who honestly believe gays will go to Hell. In their eyes it is not something they have a say in. They are entitled to their beliefs and as long as the beliefs they choose to follow do not harm themselves or anyone else emotionally or physically, I will leave it to them to believe what they choose.

So here it is, my foundation of logic that allows me to know fully understand why there is nothing wrong with homosexuality or gay marriage:

Homosexuality is A-moral. It is neither moral or immoral, it is just an orientation.

Could you say being straight is immoral? Not unless you want a whole bunch of people on the street looking at you like you are an idiot. Could you say being straight is moral? Some do, but you can't really. You aren't really doing anything, you just ARE something. It's like saying you are moral for being tall.You are attaching morality to a sexual Orientation. Like saying on a compass: North is immoral, but South is good.

Some people like to argue that gay is a choice or a lifestyle. Is straight a choice? When you see someone of the opposite sex walking down the street do you make the conscious decision "I am choosing to be physically or romantically attracted to this person". Or does it happen subconsciously? When you try vanilla ice cream for the first time do you say to yourself, "I am choosing to prefer this over the chocolate flavor"? No. 

How is it immoral to be gay? It is not a disease anymore than being straight is and it is not a choice anymore than being straight is. What strait person could consciously decide to "turn gay". What gay person could consciously decide to "turn straight". Orientations are a given. Sometimes they can be shaped by the society we live in and specific gender roles, but orientations themselves are something within us we don't have much say in. 

If we did, don't you think those people who were found out to be gay during the Inquisitions would have stopped knowing that they risked being burned alive and beheaded? If you had to choose between vanilla and chocolate ice cream, knowing chocolate is going to send you to unfair trial and to then a violent public death, wouldn't you opt for the vanilla? And yet they didn't. It's almost like they didn't have a choice in the matter, or less of one when it comes to preferring one flavor of ice cream over another. 

What IS the one thing in your life you would risk your own life for? Isn't that a person you care about and love?

Straight and Gay are not moral or immoral. Of course then some people could argue that "acts that can occur in the homosexual relationship" are immoral. But the same could be said of straight relationships. If a straight husband has sodomy his straight wife, is that immoral? But that act doesn't make being straight itself immoral. And two people having consensual "relations of an intimate nature" is not immoral as long as they are consenting adults. 

And the only argument would then be, that when that act occurs between gays it is wrong. Why? Because they're gay. Why is gay immoral if we JUST established it is a-moral? Uhhhh.... 

In other words, you can't say: "Gay is wrong because being gay is wrong." 

I win! :)

15 comments:

  1. I read this while visiting a lady who is suffering in the hospital with her leg amputated. I was thinking of writing this huge reply, using all of these Bible verses (that you wouldn't believe anyway)...but then it occurred to me: it's actually very simple.

    There are all kinds of things that you want to do in your heart, Jessica, surely including even sexual things, that you deny yourself doing because it goes against your moral code.

    Period.

    A Christian who has his/her moral code based on the Bible denies any desire within them that goes against that code. This includes homosexuality, among other things.

    Now as for "gay rights", America is not a Christian country, despite what some Christians like to think. It is a democracy/republic, and majority rules. If the majority votes to allow gays to marry, then it is very American to give them the right to do so.

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  2. I accept you're view, but I still want to understand "Why". I can list out my reasons for why I believe there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. I want to understand your reasons -be they from the Bible or other source.

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  3. To understand why, you'd have to accept a few faith positions that you're rather far from right now. Namely:

    1. The Bible is the perfect word of God, as he inspired men to write it down. In modern terms, it would be like God sent these men an email with an attachment. They opened the attachment, printed it out, and made copies for the world to read. That's really all there is to it.

    2 If you created something, you'd know exactly how it works best. Perhaps you'd write an instruction booklet so that people would know how to make your product work at best capacity. Sony made the PS3. They know how it works best and for me keep it in the best shape, I follow those rules. I do not know the exact details as to how everything works, but I know I should do it or it will break.

    I can use the same analogies for washing machines, cars, computers, etc.

    The human being is infinitely times more complex than anything we can create, just as God is infinitely more complex than us. We will never, ever know all there is to how we function, mind/body and soul. So complex, that even an explanation as to why things work the way they do within us would likely make little sense to us.

    Can a parent explain to a baby why a baby should not touch a knife? Although it is shiny? Nope...the parent can try but the baby will never understand. The parent can only say NO!

    The distance between a parent and child is nothing compared to the distance between God and man.

    But one thing we do know (if you follow part 1 of this line of reasoning), is that He knows best what is right and wrong for us even if we don't know why.

    Naturally, I've thought about WHY for a lot of things. And I have a bunch of reasons in my own head.

    I mean, is EVERYTHING sexual ok? If not, why? Where does one draw the line?

    Some would say "the line is drawn when the act isn't consensual".

    O.K. So what about the man who sleeps with every woman he gets a chance to sleep with? Or vice versa?

    What about two people who fall in love, then find out they are brother and sister? Or worse, KNEW that they were brother and sister?

    There are plenty of consensual arrangements that I daresay you would say "that's f'ed up."

    Doesn't mean we treat people who do these things in ANYWAY differently than we treat anyone else. Heck, I think sex before marriage is wrong, and I view that as being just as against the Bible as homosexuality, but I have PLENTY of friends who do it and I hang out with them, love them, eat with them, play with them, talk to them like crazy.

    One can disagree with a lifestyle and still be "cool" with them.

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  4. "O.K. So what about the man who sleeps with every woman he gets a chance to sleep with? Or vice versa?

    What about two people who fall in love, then find out they are brother and sister? Or worse, KNEW that they were brother and sister?

    Heck, I think sex before marriage is wrong"

    -Awww, I was following along with your logic until these ones. Dang. I say a sexual act is immoral when someone is emotionally/physically hurt. Consent is also a big issue.

    Rape = immoral because of emotional/ physical pain and lack of consent

    Sluts = Not immoral in the same sense of murder or rape, but Strongly ill-advised becauseit's excessing in lust which distracts people from meaningful things in life, like love and truly valuing those you are with and not just treating them like a means to an end.

    Brother and sister =Ouch. I've heard this agruement against homosexuality before where people compare it bro on sis relations. The reason inter-family romantic/physical relationships are wrong is because of incest issues and manipulations that can occur. Sibling abuse for one. If they were unaware they were realted, it's not immoral -but it is a bad mistake.

    Sex before marriage: Again, not immoral in the sense that "You will go to Hell for this" like wth murder or adultry, but it is stronglyill-advised because again it distracts people from really finding out about the person that they're with -which is what you want to do if you're focused on finding "the one".

    Adultry = Immoral because it causes emotional pain through a betrayal of trust, and if married -a corrupt act against vows that are suppose to be spiritual and sacred.

    In defense of homosexuality: Isn't there a verse in the Bile that says Homosexuals should not "pretend to be strait" and strait people should not "pretend to be gay" because it is a lie against those people's natures?

    What exactly shld homosexuals do in your eyes? Ifsomeone is gay, and you view gay to be immoral, what do you want them to do???

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  5. "I was following along with your logic until these ones..." you wrote. I'm not sure why my logic tripped up? Perhaps you view these sexual sins to be "not as bad" as others?

    Well, please understand that in the eyes of God, a sin is a sin. On the background of perfection, even a tiny blemish is clearly seen an unacceptable.

    So even though the sins on earth have different "levels" because of their earthly consequences, spiritually speaking, they are all on the same level.

    An example: a housewife staying home and cybersexing all day may not be as bad a a wife who goes out and has a real affair, but spiritually speaking, they are equally as bad. Her heart is in betrayal either way.

    Just ask the husband who finds out about either situation.

    Rape being a sexual sin is easy. It includes violence, lack of consent, lack of love.

    Sluts = you say "not as bad as murder or rape"...sure, not in terms of the earthly consequences (although if you watch Snapped, sluthood often leads to either of these). You are correct in assessing the reasons why it is wrong, but it also goes against the Biblical standard of sexuality being between one man and one woman in marriage.

    The Biblical rule has to be the standard even if we don't make sense, because there were cultures (like the Greek and Roman) where sluthood wasn't viewed as a bad thing! It was as culturally ok as homosexuality is today.

    The point I'm trying to get to you, Jessica, you are speaking about these sexual sins based on the lenses of your culture. There has to be a standard above your mind, above your culture, above your time.

    The Bible is a book that isn't stuck in any time or culture or people.

    It makes *sense* to you that being a slut is wrong, and it doesn't make *sense* to you that being a homosexual is wrong --- but that's because you are interpreting it from 2011 California culture.

    I can't buy your reasons for why incest is wrong. If two consenting adults choose not to have kids and treat each other with respect, yet they are father/daughter or sister/brother or something nasty like that, they don't have to be abusive/manipulative. If that's all it takes for sexuality to be wrong, then I'd like you to look up the documentaries that details all of the abuse and domination that takes place in lesbian relationships. Not hard to find.

    Incest is wrong because it goes against the natural order that God set up --- same reasoning can be applied to homosexuality.

    I agree with your reasons for why sex before marriage is wrong --- there are more --- but again I disagree with there level of immorality in a cosmic sense. All sins are equal.

    Adultery --- again you are right in your reasoning, but there's more --- especially when you add the damage it does to children.

    I think the verse you're talking about is where it says that men should not purposely act effeminate.

    What should homosexuals do? Same thing I tell the man who wants to cheat on his wife, same thing I tell the girl who wants to give in to her bf who wants sex before marriage, same thing I tell the slut who's addicted to the practice --- say "no" to yourself. It's not right.

    Would be nice if you spoke to Christians who used to live in a gay lifestyle, or Christians who have attractions to the same sex but act based on those attractions.

    It's like people are like "YOU ARE A MAN WHO IS ATTRACTED TO MEN? THEN YOU MUST FOLLOW YOUR NATURE AND DO IT! IT IS YOUR RIGHT!"

    Sure. Just imagine if that was our logic for everything we had a desire to do.

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  6. Whilst reading through:

    "(although if you watch Snapped, sluthood often leads to either of these)"

    ha ha ha ha..., Snapped....

    "Incest is wrong because it goes against the natural order that God set up --- same reasoning can be applied to homosexuality."

    -Tell me you did not just compare my 2 aunts being in a relationship to a sister and a brother having sex. Really...

    "say "no" to yourself. It's not right"

    -You're weird and confusing. You act like homosexuality is an act. Cheating is an act. Being gay isn't an act, it's a person. Yu're essentially calling someone immoral for having a sexual orientation. You're holding their orientatoin -something they didn't choose- against them. You mayhave urges to have an affair, but that's usually because the realtionship you are in is not well suited. You are gay regardless of whether you are in a realtionship or not. It's a characteristic. When you say, "Say No to Yourself", you are encouraging self-denial, which is why some gays commit suicide. They see themselves as wrong and immoral and they end their lives.

    What I wnt to know is what is at the heart of the Christian argument against homosexuality? Give me the text and the context. I want to see for myself what it literally says and why. And I'm pretty sure there's more than one instance of it mentioned in there too.

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  7. Can we not personalize this? Let's keep this academic. Please don't act like only you know gay people, only you love gay people, and I'm some insensitive person just picking on them. So you have gay aunts. Yayz. So do I. I have gay friends whom I adore.

    Oh, so being gay (i.e., having attractions to the same sex) is a PERSON?

    Since when? Does this apply to anything else?

    Think of *anything* else. In order to *be* something, you have to *act* like it. I don't care how you feel about the issue.

    Would you go to a doctor who *felt* like one?

    Would a professional sports team hire player who *felt* worthy to join the team?

    Would NASA send to space a kid who *really wanted* to go to space, and that's it?

    So how in the world is feeling gay mean one is gay?

    Meanwhile, grammar disagrees with your definition. A person who cheats is called a cheater. A person who commits adultery is called an adulterer. Actions make us who we are --- these actions do become people. A person can think about cheating all they want but they are not defined as such until they do the act. Same with being a doctor. I don't know why you think homosexuality has its own unique category in the world of definition and logic.

    And so, a person who acts upon gay feelings is gay.

    Why is this difficult?

    Self-denial = suicide? Wth? No, Jessica. No, no, noooo...

    A person (not only homosexual, you know!!!) who is in an environment where they are constantly teased and put down and insulted and isolated for who they are --- these people commit suicide. Homosexuals, Christians, Muslims, Fathers, Baseball players, Kings, Queens.

    Jesus Himself said that we are to deny ourselves. He is not responsible for suicides, Jessica.

    Look at the book of Romans, chapter 1. For starters.

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  8. "Self-denial = suicide?"

    No, I think we got self-denials mixed up. Self denial as in you deny who you are, you don't believe in yourself for being yourself. Not, "No i will not eat this ice cream, I am denying myself the act of eating icecream", self-denial.

    Saying no to doing something you want to do isn't what i'm talking about. It's saying no to yourself as a person because of who you are.

    Anyways, we've gotten off topic, or at least not focusing on more important aspects of this. And I wasn't trying to personalize anything.

    Anyways, I want Biblical text in references, I'll look up Romans chapter 1 later.

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  9. I see what you mean by self-denial. Still, let's take homosexuality out of the discussion for a second:

    I will use an extreme example:

    Mass murderers can't stop doing their act because it becomes what they are, and they get addicted, etc. When you read interviews of these people, they say clearly "this is what I am, this is what I've become". This is very scary to me...this is why these people are called "monsters" and no longer human.

    That's an easy example. But it goes along with a basic truth that is simply true: we are what we do. You dig coal, you're a coal miner. You play NBA basketball, you're an NBA basketball player. What we do becomes our identity, our being.

    It's simply true that not all that we become is right. A woman who does prostitution, hence becoming a prostitute, is called to deny herself and change. I know for a fact that some prostitutes take their own lives due to feeling guilty and stained with what they are. This is not the way to solve this problem. People can change who they are. But just because some people can't handle who they are, when it turns out what they are is wrong, it doesn't mean that we should tell them "it's alright. It's who you are. Don't change."

    So the argument that a homosexuality is right simply because it becomes a person's identity is inconsistent with...well...anything.

    Homosexuality is defined as right or wrong by society and religion, just like anything else on the planet. It directly involves action in order to define itself, unlike the skin/race that we are born with.


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  10. I will grant you the truth that we are what we do. I've actually written a blog a long time ago on that concept.

    But we are also things that we do not do. I am a Pisces. I can't change my birthday and the tendencies given to me inately because of that. I can however choose to change those habits over time and become unrecognizable to any specific zodiac sign.

    "But just because some people can't handle who they are, when it turns out what they are is wrong, it doesn't mean that we should tell them "it's alright. It's who you are. Don't change.""

    We should encourage others to change For the Better. Which is why encouraging changing the way a murderer or a prostitute acts would would benefit their lives and the lives of others. But I still do not see the benefit or enbetterment by telling a gay person to change into being strait -or even if that is physically possible. I suppose with enough brainwashing people's mentalities can change to anything, but would it be more harmful to require or pressure a gay person into changing than just let them be -especially since I see no harm coming from that?

    With prostitutes, murderers, adulterers... you can see the harm done -both physically and spiritually. With gays, I see no harm physically Or spiritually. I do not undertand why it is there fore deemed by some to be "wrong and immoral". You can say it's because the Bible says so, but all the other rules given make sense Except this one. Maybe there is a misinterpretation going on or a context taken out of place. That's what my brain is telling me right now, and I believe it is right.

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  11. You don't see the harm of homosexuality because you live in a culture/time where the harms of homosexuality may not be seen...or even seen as harms.

    I bring again an analogy of adultery. You should study the culture of ancient Corinth, where it was even seen as religious and right to commit adultery and have sex with the prostitutes (male and female) who served Venus.

    Was adultery wrong before Corinth? Yep.

    Was adultery wrong after Corinth? Yep.

    Was adultery wrong DURING Corinth? Well, that depends on what your definition of wrong is.

    If wrong is "what I can see as harmful in society and culture today", then it was not wrong in ancient Corinth, which prospered during this time of Venus-worship.

    If wrong is "What God says so, even if I can't see the reasons right now," then adultery is always wrong.

    Do you see what I mean?

    Look, I know what you're digging at. You want me to list real reasons why homosexuality is harmful today.

    And I admit that I'm shying from answering you, hoping that you'd understand this higher logic, but I don't believe you'll let me go.

    The question as to if homosexuality is "harmful" also has to do with what we value in society. Another way of looking at it is, "is homosexuality harmLESS".

    One can easily understand why homosexuality is harmful in a small society, amongst a small people. In such a climate, survival is key, and having children...LOTS of children, is highly, highly valued. Homosexuals cannot have kids, hence killing the future of a people.

    But we don't live in a small society where having kids is a must (heck, i don't want kids). So therefore, that harm to society isn't seen at all right now. But if we are looking at this from God's P.O.V, it was always wrong despite how society changes.

    Still, let's look at society today. There is a belief that the #1 climate that the best climate for a child to be raised in is a male father and female mother. It is through interactions with both sexes that a child learns how to live in society. This is why kids with one parent have such a disadvantage today --- the vast majority of people in jail come from single parent households.

    A counter to this argument is that a woman can ACT like the father with a woman who acts like her wife...that a woman can be every bit of the man a child needs to see growing up, as a real man can be.

    Bible says this is impossible and should not be, and that males and females are at their best acting like the sex they are born with.

    Finally, we need to wonder if homosexuality is harmLESS. In 2011, there are 1,000 new cases of HIV in SF every MONTH. These are very insane, accurate numbers that you can easily look up.

    At least 70% of those HIV cases is homosexual men! Can we truly say that the act doesn't harm anyone?

    The counter to this argument is "it is not the sex that is wrong, what is wrong is it is not safe sex". Still, this applies to all sexuality...why is it that homosexual sex is so much more prone to the deadliest sexual disease in human history?

    Now, we can debate these points into the dust (and we probably will), but for now I will say that there are at least arguments as to why it is harmful.

    As for myself, I cannot say I stand by any of these arguments 100% --- I am a man of faith where the #1 reason is God says it is wrong, I don't need cultural/social reasons to show me --- but admittedly I wonder and study these things.

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  12. Oh, as for you being born a Pisces and such...

    ...yes, but you don't have to act in order to prove that you are a Pisces. You simply are. So this analogy cannot be compared to actions that define what we are today.

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  13. "At least 70% of those HIV cases is homosexual men! Can we truly say that the act doesn't harm anyone?"

    Aids in Africa. And you have to ask how Aids was first caught in the U.S. to determine why gay men or anyone has it in the first place. Strait people can catch sexually transmitted diseases and spread them to others just as much as gays can. If there are greater cases among gays it is because gays do not have sex with strait people.

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  14. Well, I'm afraid that this goes into the realm of the unknown and guesses. Nobody knows how HIV/Aids came to be. It is popularly said that Aids came from Africa (an idea that is, of course, of much humor to black people who joke around saying they always get the blame for things), but even so, we don't know how it began.

    All we have are the stats...why are over 70% of all new cases in SF in the gay community?

    I have my ideas...and maybe the answer is known it is not stated because it's not politically correct to say so. One would have to sift through some serious underground documents and discussions to hear it stated, I believe.

    "gays do not have sex with straight people"...I know we all like to think the lines are so easily drawn like that, but sexuality is a whole lot more blurry and transient than you might think.

    Anyway, I think this topic is ground down. We can both agree that gays deserve the right to marry if it is so voted on by the people.

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  15. Ok. I'll come back to this at a later time when I have more time.

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