Religion and Humor. Apparently not a good combo. I'm not stupid. I have relatives and friends that I can't mention certain things around. Vampires must be avoided with my aunt and my Grandma Ryle. Emily's Darwin fish must also be avoided as a subject of conversation with certain people. The movie Dogma and Fluke are definitely out of the question -Dogma because it's funny and involves religion, Fluke because it involves reincarnation.
It's always hard to tell who's on the level. For instance, I couldn't mention that my aunt was a lesbian around my sister's ex-boyfriend's parents. And it was apprently a mistake to show that video of Robin Williams doing stand-up tomy Grandma Cookie. I once got in trouble for saying "that sucks" in front of my Gradma Jean. At some point you realize, grandmas and older relatives aen't as hip as you'd hope they would be.
But my sister seems to appreciate humor. I remember another exboyfriend of hers got offended when a movie made a joke about scientology. I told him if it made him feel better they had made fun of Christianity as well.
I think God has a sense of humor. There are just some moments -Lila as I like to call it from the Buddhist concept of "God's play with life"- that seem to be jokes from the great beyond to be appreciated by those who get the joke. And any way you slice it I like Robin Williams humor -and humor in general. It's something that makes people connect and relax.
People often use religious refrences to make jokes because they are common knowledge to build jokes off of. The only time I think it crosses the line is if it offends a religion. There's teasing and making light -and then there's insult.
Funny
Hilarious
OFFENSIVE
The main difference is the fact that the last photo says that the Bible is a work of Fiction that has been used to justify bigotry and genocide. It is a directly confrontational and based on ignorant accusations.
I suppose you can say it's better to take the easy route and never mention jokes about religion. I suppose you can say it's even safer not to mention religion at all since some people are insulted by misunderstandings that can come up during a discussion of it. The only problem is then you don't have that shared reality and the topic of religion never comes up and is never mentioned.
You have an appreciation for the Divine, which I love. I suppose I assumed that you also had an appreciation for the Sacred. Well, my bad for assuming --- allow me to explain, for there are things Sacred to you too.
ReplyDeleteSacred things are not teased. In anyway. They are above humor. God does indeed have a sense of humor but never do you see Him or anybody else in the Bible make fun of Him. He, and all that He stands for, is Sacred.
In fact, in Jewish culture, He is so Sacred, He has a Name that is never supposed to be mentioned. Much less make a joke out of.
You will find that not many people make fun of Muslims. That's because Muslims have a policy to kill anybody who teases what they view as Sacred.
Now, Christians aren't told to do this, but that doesn't mean they are no less offended by a teasing of what they consider Sacred.
There are things Sacred to you, even if it isn't God (yet). Emily, for example. I see that she is Sacred to you. What if there was a video on youtube, publicly making fun of her? Something the whole world was able to see?
It's one thing to have a joke between friends...if you told me you had a dream one day where a viking ends up in heaven and is bored forever, I would have shaken my head, smiled, and said "Seems we need to talk about heaven".
Just like it would be one thing if you and I teased Emily about Twilight, one on one.
But publicly? You see, when you told me to "look up" this video, I typed in the name on Google and first thing I come across is "fuck Christianity!" and "Down with stupid Christians!" and "Haha, I'm sure many Christians are pissed about this!"
Immediately, I said to myself, "Why in the world would Jessica subject me to this, knowing how sacred this is to me? Doesn't she know? How did she miss this?"
I should have quit right there, but I assumed that it couldn't be what I thought it was, since I assumed Jess-Doe who writes such great things about God, who is studying the Bible, would never let me see something like this. I figured all of those comments were misplaced or something.
Stuuuuuuuupid me.
Beyond the video, it is the comments, teasings and reactions from others that is offensive. It would be like looking at a video that would lead people to call your sister a loser, an idiot or a whore and you had to read it.
A video that puts down the very reason Christ died? To bring us to heaven? Jesus is my first love...so I have to watch a video that puts down His greatest purpose?
I found it painfully ironic for another reason. I notice on twitter that you retweet that dude Zak Bagans for whatever his name is. Naturally, as I have chosen to look out for you, I looked him up. Lo and behold, he's a ghost dude. I smiled, and also looked up more info on him. There are SO many videos and websites making fun of him, discrediting him and putting him down.
I was tempted at one time to send you some of that stuff over twitter. But then I said to myself, "Why? Why would I tease what she likes and what is important to her?" While I don't think he is SACRED to you, I see that you do like him, and so out of *respect* for you I kept those things to myself.
ReplyDeleteSo although I don't share...well, anything with you regarding Zak Bagans, out of *respect* for what you like I kept those things to myself.
You've heard of the story of David and Goliath. What you might not have heard were the original reasons of why they fought. David got pissed off because Goliath was teasing God. David said, "Who does this guy think he is, teasing God like that?" This got David so pissed that he got up and fought Goliath.
I have such a broad sense of humor that people sometimes think they can tease me about anything and I laugh. I even laugh at racist humor (as long as its not TOO much and not just focused on my race). But two things I don't play with --- anything involving my wife, and anything involving my God.
These things are sacred to me.
One guy in church made the mistake of teasing my marriage --- publicly. Let's just say he will never do so again.
I'm hoping you can understand this concept --- all of us have things that we don't want publicly teased and put down because it is important to us. What I think is people don't get how God can be as much beloved to someone as a person.
With me, there is nothing more beloved than Christianity --- this pure Idea that Jesus gave us His Life to establish.
I hope you understand.
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"But publicly? You see, when you told me to "look up" this video, I typed in the name on Google and first thing I come across is "fuck Christianity!" and "Down with stupid Christians!" and "Haha, I'm sure many Christians are pissed about this!""
ReplyDelete-I didn't know people said that stuff. That just makes them idiots. I consider jokes made about Christianity to be jokes between Chrsitians. If you ask someone who makes a joke about Chrisitanity what they really think about the religion, they'll either say they Believe in God and Respect Jesus, or they're athiests. If it is a Christian, then it's a joke between hrsitian. Most people don't believe Heaven will be boring and dull. And if it's an athiest, then you can add their mocking of a religion and a God they have no respect for just another issue they can add to their lack of Faith and hold onto the Truth.
I don't take idiots seriously -so if they are taking a joke litterally and purposely putting down a religion, then it's their issue. They're the joke.
I know people tease Zak Bagans. He acts like Chris Angel sometimes and is alittle over-the-top with his narrations. I blame the fact that he's not a professional host/ speaker and just a guy trying to be one because he's leading the show. I don't care if people make fun of him -I know they do.
Consequently I don't care if people make fun of Em for watching Twilight. they make fun of every human under the sun for watching that movie because what they're really making fun of if the Movie. However if they ame insulting comments about her, that's not making jokes. People should be Positive, Respectful, and Open-Minded. Jokes should be the same.
A joke between two people is capable of being "Positive, Respectful and Open Minded"...but once it is made public, it is impossible to keep it so. Somebody is going to take it too far and be insulting. Therefore, you have to be careful what you joke about, because whatever the object of the joke it, it will be made into an insult by others.
ReplyDeleteThis connection between a public joke and insult is so guaranteed that it's practically the same, Jessica. That's why when I see a public joke about God, I am insulted, because I know that somebody will be using that joke to insult Who I love most on the planet.
A public joke about Christ will ALWAYS be turned into an insult about Christ, just as a public joke about Emily will ALWAYS be turned into an insult to her.
This is what "Sacred" means, something that is not allowed to be simply put into the hands of everyone, but should only be viewed and touched by those people who'd appreciate it properly.
Some things, it is safer and more respectful simply not to joke about. This is why, although I don't believe any other religion outside of Christ is the Way, I speak about them all with respect and never joke about them.
Respect.
Sacred.
Two important words if one is truly going to be able to speak to everyone in a respectful manner. Leave religious jokes to the bigots who don't care about offending others.
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"Somebody is going to take it too far and be insulting. Therefore, you have to be careful what you joke about, because whatever the object of the joke it, it will be made into an insult by others."
ReplyDelete-This statement honestly pisses me off. You're saying that if somebody tells a positive, respectful joke and somebody else then comments on it afterword in a negative, disrespectful way, the joke itself then becomes Negstive and disrespectufl? How the hell does that work? If that wre true than any joke ever told could be turned into something negative just by some loser with no brain making stupid offhanded comments after it is said. In which case, all jokes would then be equally at risk of being negative and disrespectful because it is public. Like a bumper sticker. Just because somebody takes a bumper sticker saying and adds his own bigotry monologue after he reads it, doesn't make the original bumper sticker bigotted.
"A public joke about Christ will ALWAYS be turned into an insult about Christ, just as a public joke about Emily will ALWAYS be turned into an insult to her."
-You're giving the "haters" validity. You're saying that if somebody is negative about a light-hearted joke, they degrade the joke and make it negative. Negative people shouldn't stop good people from enjoying life. Share jokes regardless of what ignorant people might twist them into afterwards. I'm sure you can say the same for Christ's words. People who did not take Him seriosuly and chose to disrespect Him made fun of Him for cming from Galilee. Does that mean what Jesus spoke was negative and disrespectful because people wanted to kil Him over it?
"Sacred" doesn't mean off-limits to people. Sacred means -To Be Respected by people. In Avatar, there were sacred trees that the Navii loved that were riped to shreds by men who didn't consider them significant. It doesn't mean they couldn't have been with the trees, but they needed to respect it.
I interpret a joke the way I choose. It is My choice, no one elses. I take any bigotted joke as an insult. I take a funny joke as humor. I'll leave others to make up their own minds about how they interpret things.
Alright I'm just going to be straight...forget this beating around the bush.
ReplyDeleteLook --- I view religious jokes to be the realm of the slightly intellectual trash, just intellectual enough to get the joke, but not intellectual to realize how stupid they are.
I have always viewed them as being made and shared and appreciated by people who don't get out, who don't interact much with society, and who will never succeed in the real world because they don't appreciate or respect people who take these things seriously. Christian jokes are only funny around non-Christians, Muslim jokes are only funny around non-Muslism, and so the only people who can keep on with these jokes are people who keep to themselves.
Such people can, therefore, never go far in the real world because to succeed in the real world one must have an appreciation for the sacred, and what is important for other people even if they do not understand why. If not, these people can never go far with other people.
So yes, I view South Park/Dogma/etc to be the realm of *slightly* intellectual trash and I have never, ever appreciated it.
Now, what messes me up is that I've never viewed you as any of the the above. I still do not now. You have a certain purity and innocence about you, combined with an intellect and wisdom that draws me to you. If you didn't have either the innocence or the wisdom, I confess I would not be really interested in you. But as such, you remain interesting.
I don't understand this dichotomy in you --- the ability to show so much respect and understanding of religion and then still go along with things where the source's goal is to ridicule these same things.
(con't)
So let's keep this in context. The source of this discussion is not just some random "positive, respectful and open-minded" joke. Don't try to over extend the subject matter in order to try and win the argument.
ReplyDeleteWe are talking about things such as that "viking" cartoon, which showed people wearing the most sacred symbol of Christianity being thrown about and dashed to pieces, this same symbol paraded in a ridiculous fashion, and then the very end-goal of Christianity displayed as being a very miserable place.
This is not "positive, respectful and open-minded" Jessica. Just because you (somehow) can't understand that people are offended by this, you should still have enough respect for people who ARE offended by it. That's enough.
You seem to have a very high opinion of your own wisdom which troubles me. You've stated at least twice recently that you are very "wise" for your age. Therefore, you think that if you can't understand the reasoning of something, then that reasoning is somehow not valid.
(In reality, the wiser you get, the more you're realize how dumb you are. It is that way for all of us.)
In an intellectual forum, perhaps it is ok to not tolerate a reasoning that cannot be understood. But in *real life*, Jessica? In *real life*, you must still *respect* the reasoning of others even if you can't figure it out.
This world is not right or wrong based on your opinion.
(con't)
Your definition of the word/adjective "sacred" is not complete. I invite you to look it up in the dictionary.
ReplyDeleteThe definition of adjective includes "devoted", "dedicated", "veneration", "set aside", "set apart".
Sacred is a word that describes the very definition of things are not supposed to touched by EVERYONE, only those who appreciate/understand/know if for what it is. Hence, a joke about something sacred is the very definition of offense, since that joke in itself is not portraying that sacred object in the correct context.
(con't)
If you love something, you like it to be portrayed publicly in the best light possible. An incomplete/comical portrayal of that thing you love would at the very least bother you.
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"I don't understand this dichotomy in you --- the ability to show so much respect and understanding of religion and then still go along with things where the source's goal is to ridicule these same things."
ReplyDelete-They say it's good to joke about su jects in school because it implies that the student has mastered the learing of that subject. To make fun of something and get the joke, you must first understand the subject. Yes, some people make stupid jokes because they know little about he subject, but only people who really understand it make jokes that are actually funny. Jon Stewart is Jewish, but he can take and make jokes about judaism. Colbert isn't jewish, but he can make jokes about judaism. Both are funny. it's becausr they have a respect and understanding for it and do not take the jokes literally themselves. That's why it's called a joke -it is not meant tobe taken seriously. The problem is, some people do and then they get offended. Which is why it is important to distniguish if the joke was intended to be taken seriously, or is repsectfully just making light of a common understanding.
" "viking" cartoon, which showed people wearing the most sacred symbol of Christianity being thrown about and dashed to pieces, this same symbol paraded in a ridiculous fashion, and then the very end-goal of Christianity displayed as being a very miserable place."
It showed a warrior trying to achieve an honorable death in order to get to vikig heaven. He saw a monster terrorizing a church and saw his opportunity to achieve this. He saved nuns and defeated a monster, ten dying himself. He was happy to be entering into his version of heaven, when the nuns burried him in a christian ceremonial way. You feel for the nuns. You appreciate that they respected his sacrifice enough to burry him respectfully. then he misses out on the "viking heaven" which involved beer and bashing and gold, in place of "Christian heaven" which he found boring. This stark contrast shows that some people are more focused on gold and beer than geting into heaven which they consider to be a boring place -if anything it speaking to the joke of human nature and how people often desire the physical world to the extent that -like the egyptians -they want heaven to be filled with worldly enjoyments.
Chrisitanity teaches us that heaven isn't a physical realm and people who want it o be therefore lack a desire to go there. It is there view of heaven, and it is a commical one. The viking isn't taking heaven seriosuly, and so his portrayal of itis funny. I didn't take it seriously becaus I know that's not what heaven is like and I know those people who are like the viking won't end up getting what they want because they invest in the wrong things.
"This is not "positive, respectful and open-minded" Jessica."
-No it isn't -and it's not meant to be. It's close-minded and a negative view of heaven, whch is why it is funny. In no way is it based on reality. It's pure fiction. And I can laugh at fiction because it's not mocking a real reality or religion. The Bible taches nothing that says heaven is boring. They're making stuff up on their own. It might as well be saying heaven is filled with unicorns and lollypops -which would also be pretty funny.
Because it's not serious.
"Just because you (somehow) can't understand that people are offended by this"
-I would not show this video of the viking to certain people who take religion too seriously or are serious people in general. I didn't think it would offend you. I respect that it does and will not show you like videos again, but you should also respect that I find it funny and do not take the video seriously. I meant no offense by showing it to you, just thought you'd find it amusing. Won't make that mistake again.
I will respect you where you are right now, that is, being an area where you'll surely grow in wisdom. I think you are truly trying your best to be correct about this, but I'm just seeing too much lack of experience here. I've lived in New York, California, New Mexico, Switzerland and England, and visited and spent time in several other countries --- one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that humor for one person is tragedy for someone else. Not everything should be made fun of --- if you yourself want to be taken seriously by a larger group of people.
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